Curse

william1975 · May 29, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I don't play elite areas simply because my most experienced character is my mesmer and nobody can be bothered with them

When i decieded to pvp i went with ele because everyone wants an ele, thats how i got teams in ha, but i soon came to the conclusion that i hate the slow casting speed and constant interuptions.

So having heard of some folk taking up a mesmer to do ele i converted my mesmer into a fast casting air nuker, and what do you know it rocks, i have played in RA with it and on a number of occasions saved the team, now i have been going out in AB and it still works extremely well, only problems is rip enchants really.

What is most satisfying is when a warrior or Assassin comes up to me and starts laying into me expecting to wipe the florr with me, but after a few seconds later they try to run away and then lay dead at my feet. It's also quite amazing going up against an ele and beating them.

However I know that if i were to go and pug in places like the deep, urgoz or HA i wouldnt get into a team, or would get dropped because folk would think the build is bad. I actually got someone in AB criticising it and telling me to take a critical skill out of it, and replace it with a high cost, exhausting, no energy return or damage skill.

Radiuju · May 29, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Listen to Zinger, she's been around long enough to know what she's talking about. She wouldn't decieve you.

But, It's more fun to complete in 2 hours than 5+ Hours. Ask anyone who has a balanced life.

Zinger314 · May 29, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dryndalyn

I think that it doesn’t matter how long a mission takes, as long as you are having fun doing it.

My husband and I have fought our way from Becan’s Perch to Droknar’s Forge a few times and sure it took about five hours, but it was fun. I still enjoy it.

And yes, Mesmers are capable. I brought my Mesmer one of those times and it was back in the days before the heroes, so we just brought the henchies with us. Well, once we brought a tank with us but he went afk for quite a while because his mom wanted him to come to dinner. But in the end, we all made it through!

If it’s all about gain for you, well, then that's what you are doing it for. You probably don’t find the mission all that fun, but see it as more of a job. It makes sense that you would want the formula builds so that you could be done with it as fast as possible.

But don’t knock others for wanting to have fun and be creative. Some of us don’t care about gain as much as exploring our potential. It’s just a different take on the game. It’s not for everyone.

There are enough people out there that do have this different take on the game and I agree that the cookie-cutter trend can be broken.

It all has to start someplace…like here how about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Pugs are for fun not speed, if you want speed forget about necros and mesmers, just get a friend and run 6 SF eles and 2 monks, pretty much as fast as it gets but its also pretty dull.

Alright...but these are Elite Missions. These missions deviate so much from the normal playstyle that it's directly contradictory to the Guild Wars philosophy.

I personally hate Elite Missions and do not do them anymore (I had done them multiple time during the free access weekend in August '06) because the Time::Reward ratio is so low. While the recent patch to those missions helped, you'll still sometimes get a worthless item at the end...that is, if you get to the end and kill Kanaxai/Urgoz without any problem. Otherwise, your two hours is mostly wasted.

Elite Missions generally aren't fun, also. One mistake can lead to a wipe and the loss of several hours.

Now, more on topic, almost everyone agrees that Mesmers, Dervish, Assassins, and Paragons are weaker in scope than other classes. This is especially true in these Elite Missions; what any of those classes can do, another class can do better. Necromancers have more powerful Hexes than the Mesmer, Warriors Tank and Elementalists do more damage than Dervish, Assassins interfere with aggro and only deal single-target damage, and a Paragon's heals are only reactive (i.e. useless against Degen and for most party members who don't get hit).

It's ArenaNet's fault that the cookie-cutters exist, not the players'.

Halmyr · May 29, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Every thing as its place and time, both cookies cutter and outside the box built.

Places like elite misson and Tombs, I can understand, if people wanna get to the end, ASAP, but they can also try out for a new built to see if they can make faster ( more then likly the first one)

In pugs, or alone, making new built, using thing that most player do not think of can be very fun.

Personaly, I understand Cookie cutter built, but I also applaud the out of the box builts. All the I ask is that you can play them well. Because in the end, its the skill of the player that will make the built work or not.

fenix · May 29, 2007, 02:36 AM // 02:36

GvG builds or HA builds are always fun to run in PvE

Curse You · May 29, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Most likely, many of the people doing these Elite Missions have other commitments either than playing Guild Wars. As a result, they want to be able to get the most out of their playtime. If they know a "cookie-cutter" build will get the mission done in about 2 hours, then they can more accurately time themselves for their other commitments.

Really, most of you people seem to act as though all "cookie-cutter" builds were spawned by the devil or something. However, just remember, at some point they were likely the out-of-the-box builds.

Dr Strangelove · May 29, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

The cookie cutters for the elite missions aren't based around the fastest way to do things, they're based around the most retard-proof solutions. There are tons of ways to improve upon the existing builds, but they all require relatively skilled players who can do more than spam BiP or searing flames. To make a non-cookie cutter group, you just need relatively skilled players. How you find those is your own problem, though.

However, the current cookie cutters do work, after a fashion, so there's no reason to break them unless you have a group of players willing to put time in to create a new build, and sufficient skill to create a build yourself.

Toll Booth Willie · May 29, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

I gave in a long time ago and just went with what is proven/cookie cutter when doing uw/fow/elite etc.. Ya you can take custom builds and be successful but it will take longer, you'll also get grief from the group when they relize your not using the norm and some might drop. If I know my build is going to slow things down or increase the chance of dieing then I just save it for another area.

Also after countless nerfs by anet to skills/ai/classes etc you will run team xyz and not take those other classes/builds. It seems with every nerf it narrows the acceptable team options. I would love to see some buffs so we could have some variety/change. I use ele mostly and i've had ms on my bar for 2 years (pve/ab), i don't want ms or sf nerfed I want other skills buffed so that they are a viable options.

I leave the unique builds to farming solo/hero, ab, missions/quest in normal mode. I know my farming is not made for efficiency but i don't care, i run what i enjoy and is based on how i feel at the time. Farming is pretty much pointless anyways since updates. I swear Anet must have hired some ppl from SWG to show them how to run off the community.

Tiny Killer · May 29, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I'm not saying that cookie-cutter builds are the best, but you aren't better.

Yes, in fact, I am.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

It's ArenaNet's fault that the cookie-cutters exist, not the players'.

No, it isn't.

Edge Martinez · May 29, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiuju

Listen to Zinger, she's been around long enough to know what she's talking about.

LMAO!!! Are you kidding me? Half of guru just read that as 'Don't listen to Radiuju... he listens to Zinger.'

I've found the best way to look for a non cookie-cutter PUG for a cookie-cutter elite area is to go somewhere else. Like if you want to do FoW, go to Tombs and get a group for it. Just don't expect to get necros, monks or rangers. If you want a Deep group, advertise for it in the Luxon areas. Don't waste your time initially by going to The Deep. Etc. etc.

Phantom Gun · May 29, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

First off I just want to say great post Dryndalyn. My wife and I have done stuff just like that.

Anyway back to whatever else. There was a time when just the normal missions were becoming this way to. Most of the time my builds ended up in groups with other outcasts. But 90% of the time we came through and "usually" we ended up with masters.

One time in Cantha I ended up in a all ranger group. We all thought we would fail but somehow we pulled off masters. It was a great group and we worked well together. It's nice when you find a group that just wants to play the game and have some fun. I admit not all of the groups i've been in turned out that way and not all the groups i've been in have been fun and enjoyable.

I also have a mesmer. I never thought I would have gotten as far with him as I did since they are looked down upon. But I got through tyria and cantha with him. Slowly working on nightfall. I could go on about my other characters but I won't.

For me though it's groups of other people that just want to have fun and play the game that make this game great for me. It doesn't matter what build you are. If we don't make it so be it, if we do then great. I understand some people want to gain the most out of the time they spent playing the missions, and I do to. However playing in a group of good people "as in nice, funny, or whatever", is the part of this game I most enjoy.

I'm sorry if I got a bit off topic but I just had to say that.

Zinger314 · May 29, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiny Killer

Yes, in fact, I am.

Prove it.

Give an example of a build and a scenario where a non-cookie cutter build would be, beyond a shadow of a doubt, superior to a cookie cutter build.

The Mesmer Hex Removal build mentioned earlier is not without a shadow of a doubt superior to a SS or a Renewal Nuker. Those Mesmers have their advantages, but SS and Renewal Nukers have more advantages.

FoxBat · May 29, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Much of the "tank-nuke" mentality of cookie cutter teams is because their monks suck. Between prot spirit, shield of absorption, and healing seed, anyone in the game can tank on demand, as mobs are generally too stupid to switch targets. This requires something called "pre-protting" which many are unfamiliar with however.

"The Steel Wall" build is very outdated with NF. Massed Paragons plus the KD wars, with 2 LoD and Orders off the radar, would massacre the place without any challenge and minimal impact from the environmental effects. Another example, a lot of B/P teams still haven't heard of splinter weapon since that got updated, alot of them still don't bring mark of pain or barbs, and they typically bring all heal monks even though orders is eating up most of the shatters. (though again, prot monks require preprotting ability in the first place)

It's always been like this though. Back in the pre-factions days, me and a few others were posting about Spiteful Spirit stance warriors for droks troll farming. I've run the 55 monks for comparison and the warrior does it faster. It's much harder to play than a 55 though. (Albeit it gets easy when you do it alot.)

Moral of the story: cookie cutter builds are typically not only A) effective but B) easy to play. If you work on your skill, you may find more efficient options opening up to you.

fenix · May 29, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Cookie-cutter builds are the EASIEST and most effective builds. They aren't necessarily the best. There are lots of cases where the 'cookie-cutter' builds have changed, because someone has come up with a better build. There are 10 classes, with 1200 skills. There's MOST LIKELY a build that will be better, if you have better players.

zwei2stein · May 29, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

You really shouldn't discard cookie cutter builds just and only because they are so common or because they are not your own creation.

In last few days i did lot of deep (guess why), when people pinged builds, they hardly had exact copies of wiki builds, They carried needed gimmick skills of course, but at lest 1/2 of skillbar was different for each person. And everyone was okay with it. Well, sompe people had exact wiki builds, but they turned out to be quite clueless.

There is also thing called "convergence". This game simplay has working stuff, stuff so-so working and simply not working at all.

It means that if you care about how good build you have, and keep improving whatever you run that is so-so working without external infulence, you will eventually end up with something with uncanny resemblance to your hated cookie cutter. (fact that mesmers never converged to cookie resembling build suggests that there is no outstanding good build to run (dont give me s* that mesmers players are above that, not everyone who has mesmer and enjoys playing it is militant anticookier.) )

Example: My assassin went throught several stages, but by time i finished factions he had quite standart chain (leadless offhand, hoto, falling, twisting - joy of mursaat slaughter), when i compared my build to guildie now we had practically same moebius based thing.

--

One of saddest things around was when i read some dervish thread: guy there made his own (nice) build, fine tuned it and then he freaked out because it was what most of other dervishes ran, cookie hate made him abandon his OWN build. talk about being irrational.

Vyral · May 29, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Cookie cutter builds have their place in GW. They basically exist for people that have no established guild or friends list that they can call on to play with the same people on a routine basis. Cookie cutter builds give a person joining a group an idea of what to expect from his teammates. He knows what that person is going to do, and how he's going to do it. Cookie Cutter builds tend to be grossly inefficient but intentionally redundant. That way if some unreliable PuG joins and drops, the run isn't lost.

So Cookie Cutter builds have their place. However, I _hate_ when I see people ridiculing others for not having the cookie cutter build in place. In general, there are 2 reasons this might happen: 1. The person doesn't know any better or 2. The person is way better than you and has a better build. Unless you are willing to listen and try to understand an unusual build, then you have no idea which of those is the truth. Calling the person in the latter example a noob just makes you look like an idiot.

I still find it amusing to take my Ritualist down to the Deep to try to join a PuG group. It is almost invariably impossible. Even after posting the 6 Man Deep build on guildwiki (now, in unedited form on PvXwiki) I still couldn't get anybody to take a ritualist seriously down there. Yet my guild doesn't ever run without one. Today I was told by every PuG in a team I joined that my warrior needed Recall. I was trying a new trick to replace Recall and it works _flawlessly_. Yet the only reason that I didn't get booted from the team was that I was the leader of it. Our current 9 man HM build (still being optimized) uses a Ritualist _and_ a Paragon. Try finding a paragon in any other group. Yet we still make the run as fast or faster than any build containing elementalists (we don't use any) and at the beginning Room 2 clears itself _without_ needing to be rescued. The difference between our build and the cookie cutter builds is synergy. With synergy comes efficiency and speed. And its a lot of fun to play.

So, what's my point? My point is that so-called cookie cutter builds have a place in the game, and to decry them as all that is wrong with the game is silly and insubstantial. The flip side is that Cookie Cutter builds are builds that work and tend to be safe, but are not necessarily the builds that work _best_. And you should make sure you understand another person's build before you ridicule it, as they might have an idea that is superior to your cookie cutter build. In that case, it would be advisable to shut up and learn a trick or two.

lutz · May 29, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Who cares what build you're running? If you're playing with friends and having fun, then that's the most important part.

Hell, I've run a bunch of cookie-cutter builds in DoA [you know, 1 OF Tank, 3 Nukers, 3 Monks, 1 BiP] and did City in 45 minutes on HM. It was fast. It was fun. Why? You played with the PEOPLE that made it fun. We'd screw up and have a laugh on vent, and the such, but for the most part we worked.

This argument is stupid.

Patrick Smit · May 29, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Pugs are for fun not speed, if you want speed forget about necros and mesmers, just get a friend and run 6 SF eles and 2 monks, pretty much as fast as it gets but its also pretty dull.

We ran with one ToF paragon instead of a SF ele, and it clears FoW Hardmode remarkebly well. We happend to jump in by accident in HM while we actually wanted to get some armor. We noticed by the mobs damage output that we were not in normal mode ^^

Certain parts in Elona with the same build seemed a lot more tricky

bungusmaximus · May 29, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Yeah, cookie cutters exist because people want to pug and don't lose time on forming teams too much. There is room for variety though, I personally try out something new every now and then and if you can back up why you take certain stuff, people will often be lenient (mind this only works on good players, bad ones lack imagination). But mainly cookie cutters are considered easy because all people have a more or less simple role they all know.

Destinyy · May 29, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

The real reason Cookie-Cutter builds exist is because they work so well and are easy to play!!!

I like to create my own builds based on what I want to do with my char; I look at the skills avaiable, their effects and how they relate to other skills and I put together a build I have fun playing with...

I'm a necro man, and play all kinds of builds from MM, SS, SV, Blood Spike... It's amazing how many people ask why there is no fleshy in my MM build (Funny how they miss OoU tho).

It's all good, IMO, if a team don't want u cos you not Cookie-Cutter then why would you wanna mission with them anyway?